Caplan on Reality Check: UFOs, JFK and Watergate

0:07Good day and welcome back to reality check hard on the heels of the third tranche of UFO files. I'm delighted to have today with me Jonathan Kaplan KC. He's a a leading barrister, a King's Counsel. He's practiced for over 50 years and he's acted in some of Britain's most interesting legal cases. The rogue trader frauds of Nick Leeson who took Barings Bank for 1.4 billion dollars, media baron Robert Maxwell's pension scandal fraud, the Leveson inquiry into the British press's scandalous conduct, the phone hacking scandal, corporate malfeasance and naughty media, he's your man.

0:52He's been at the thin center of sensitive, high-stakes litigation with significant international attention and he's regularly ranked in the top tier of British lawyers in his specialist fields. His legal work underlines just how rigorously Jonathan Kaplan emphasizes forensic evaluation of evidence. So, by any measure, Mr. Kaplan is a careful and measured assessor of the truth. So, why is he writing a book on this crazy UFO subject? For in addition to his prestigious legal career, John is the author of the 2026 book just out Not for Disclosure UFOs, the world's best

1:39kept secret, which is published just this week by Century Penguin. He has researched UAPs for over 50 years and applies his forensic legal skills to evaluate evidence from scientific, intelligence, and military sources. And he's previously served on the editorial board of a leading international UFO journal. John Kaplan, welcome to Reality Check. It's great to have you here. >> Well, thank you very much, Ross, and I'm delighted to be with you from London. >> So, tell me, sir, why are you interested in UFOs? What twigged your interest? How early did you get engaged down the rabbit hole? >> Well, my my interest goes back I'm afraid to

2:25the early 1970s and I saw an item on a television program here about a flying saucer following a passenger plane, which piqued my interest. And after that, I began to look for information on this subject to see what I could find. There wasn't a lot in those days and I ended up joining the board of an international magazine called Flying Saucer Review, which I think at the time was the leading magazine in this subject. We had correspondents such as Jacques Vallée and many other leading ufologists who supplied material for the magazine. One of my jobs was to deliver each copy to the equerry of Prince Philip, who was interested in the

3:10subject. And I met through the editors, who were Gordon Creighton, Charles Bowen, many of the leading researchers at the time. And then as my interest became known, I managed to meet people who were in official positions. I've done some work for government agencies and I think perhaps because of my profession, they I I earned their trust and they were prepared to confide in me perhaps in ways they would not otherwise have done. >> So, have you ever had a conversation with anybody in the British government who's admitted that they know a hell of a lot more than the British government cares to publicly admit about UFOs?

3:55>> So, the conversations I've had um with politicians and people in the um principal intelligence services, by that I mean MI6 and MI5, um are haven't yielded much at all. And in fact, um a former senior officer of MI6 told me that this subject had never crossed his desk. And I believe that's the case because I think that this is we don't have a budget. Most countries don't have a budget for this topic. And it is kept, I think, very much outside of the principal powers, the US, Russia, and China, um within small departments of the Department of Defense whose principal interest is national security and

4:42ensuring that there is no threat to uh our airspace or our oceans. And they rely a lot on um the Americans uh to provide what they will. >> What's the most celebrated UK UAP case that you think is worthy of public attention? >> Um I think there's been a few. I mean, I think Rendlesham was an interesting case. Um I think we've had um cases um where we've had craft over nuclear facilities. Um there obviously have been uh uh um reported abductions here. Um so, I think pretty much the normal span of uh UFO cases that you get internationally. >> One of the things I've come across in my

5:28time is Australian special forces guys who've told me they were a secondment to 22 Hereford, the British SAS regiment. And they incidentally found themselves dispatched for what was apparently, they're not sure because they're not quite sure what they were retrieving. It was a retrieval. Are you aware of allegations of British special forces being involved in retrievals of non-human craft or suspected exotic technology? >> I'm aware of um uh that having been alleged, and I'm aware possibly of one individual who I think may well have been on such a mission, but I don't have any direct knowledge. Um obviously the special forces are under the direction

6:15of um the Prime Minister, and they are detached for special missions. And um it may well be that that that that that has happened. I don't discount it, but I haven't got direct evidence. >> Look, while I'm here, I didn't ask you ahead of time about this, but I thought I'd throw this at you anyway and see whether it pushes your buttons. There is the most extraordinary video that's done the rounds for a while online, and it's at a place called Goodwood Aerodrome, and it purportedly features non-human beings on a long-range video um meeting humans, and obviously the implication is that it's some kind of exchange of apparently a dead being with British authorities. Are you aware of

7:00this video? It's long circulated on the internet, and to me uh I've heard rumors about Goodwood, and I've just wondered whether it came across your desk at all in your time at Flying Saucer Review. >> Um I'm afraid it hasn't actually, no, but now you mention it, it brought something up. I will I will I will >> I'll send you I'll send you I'll send you the link afterwards, and I think I'll I'll post it on I'll post it maybe in this in this story. It is an intriguing one. Now, one of the things that I'm fascinated by is that Prince Philip and his equerry were [clears throat] very interested in UFOs, and as you say you delivered copies of Flying Saucer Review to the Queen's husband, the Duke of Edinburgh. Um did you ever get the chance to engage with him directly?

7:46>> No, I I haven't engaged with him directly. I've engaged with um, people in that circle without identifying them. Um, but he did have an interest, uh, a great interest, and um, Sir Peter Horsley, um, who was his equerry and a former Air Force officer, um, used to interview witnesses, um, at the palace, and um, uh, Prince Philip would receive reports of um, Peter Horsley's investigations. They did it in in a way which um, was not attracting too much publicity, obviously. But this was something that they were both interested in, and Prince Philip was very happy, um, to agree to. >> And I think you also mention in the book that Lord Louis Mountbatten, who sadly

8:31was murdered by the IRA, uh, he also took an interest. >> Yes, he had an interest, too. And there are rumors, I've never been able to substantiate them, that in fact a craft has landed, um, on his um, a estate. Um, uh, and that it'd been seen by a gardener. I've heard that from a couple of people in in the employment, um, of um, uh, Lord Mountbatten, but I I can't confirm it, but that's that that's certainly a a rumor. >> You're way ahead of me, John. I was about to ask you about exactly the same thing. Yeah, I I was going to ask whether you'd heard about the UFO that landed at Mountbatten's estate. There is a long history in the British aristocracy. I mean, I've been I've actually been approached by people with

9:17titles in the UK who have a I think an eccentric interest in the subject, the arcane subject of UAPs, but they're all a bit shy about going public. One thing that um, I'm I'm fascinated by is an account that you tell in your book where the equerry, Prince the Duke of Edinburgh's equerry, went to visit what may have been a person that was non-human. Can you tell me that story? >> Yes. Um it's it's it's very interesting and he tells it in his book um Sounds from Another Room. And I've no doubt that it would not have been put into that book um without Prince Philip's consent because um Peter Townsley would have never have published

10:02it otherwise. And he tells the story of being introduced by uh to a woman called um um Mrs. Markham who had a flat in Chelsea, fashionable Chelsea. And um he was asked to go there by um a military colleague um and to uh meet her and somebody who was interested in uh possibly um having some information for Prince Philip. He went and there was a mysterious figure in the corner of the room who was introduced as Mr. Janus. And he immediately um became aware that Mr. Janus was able to uh read um his mind and was able to tell him of a

10:49number of confidential matters which were not public. And then Mr. Janus invited him to tell him what he knew about the subject of what we then called flying saucers. And he proceeded then to give him a a detailed account of how another civilization had become so advanced um that they um had um were interested in developing life and sustaining life elsewhere. And he very much wanted uh did Mr. Janus to meet Prince Philip who he felt was a man who was attuned to nature, to animals, to the ecology of the planet. And the meeting in fact was um to try and persuade Peter Townsley to

11:34affect that introduction. Um Peter Townsley left, certainly, um let's say um rather disquieted by the fact that he'd met somebody with um who who was uh certainly unusual. He He came pretty much to the to the conclusion that um Mr. Janus was an extraterrestrial, not somebody of this um human civilization. Uh but he obviously would have discussed it. He made a report immediately of the conversation, contem- contemporaneous report as soon as he left. Um and went back uh to Mrs. Markham's flat sometime later. Uh but uh she had was not there. Uh the flat was empty.

12:19And she He was unable to make any further contact with her. But he he decided very much that he was not going to make that introduction. >> That's an intriguing [clears throat] story. There's another one you tell in the book, and I've I've read this before, but it's a very senior British RAF officer, Royal Air Force officer, who's flying his aircraft, I think, in the 1930s, and he seems to go through some kind of a portal where he sees men in coveralls and activity on an aerodrome, and it's quite inexplicable what he saw. Can you tell me that story as well, because it's one I've heard before, and I was fascinated to see you've included it in your book. >> Yes, I've included in the book, though, Ross, because it fits into a very

13:04interesting development. Um within a Obviously, Majestic 12 is a matter of um some controversy. I I conclude that uh Majestic 12 existed and that the documents are real. Uh and I think there's We can talk [clears throat] about that later, if you wish. But one of the things um I I I've discovered in in um looking at the matter further is that within 1 week of uh the Truman directive to um Bush and um Forest James Forrestal uh to in fact set up Majestic 12 and report directly to him at the beginning of October 1947 uh uh Forrestal then had a meeting with

13:50uh Sir Henry Tizard who at that time was the chief scientific advisor to the Ministry of Defense. And it is extremely unlikely that Forrestal did not tell Sir Henry um about um uh Majestic 12, the reason that it had been set up because of the craft that had been found and the biologics that went with it. And Sir Henry Tizard in fact came back to the United Kingdom and did set up a secret flying saucer working party um uh in the Ministry of Defense. But not only that, Forrestal then had in the month of October 1947 a number of meetings with other Air Force officers and uh British Ministry

14:35of Defense officials. And the only conclusion I think you can really properly draw from that is that they were working to some uh plan and some uh there was some design. And one of those people was Air Marshal Victor Goddard um who saw Forrestal and I can't remember whether he saw Eisenhower in October. But Goddard's a very interesting um individual and he had had himself some um paranormal experiences. As you say, he was flying over a decommissioned airfield um which was situated at Drem. And as he came out of cloud, he saw planes and people in yellow uniforms on the ground which was a very accurate

15:21description of that airfield, but that only happened several years later because it was decommissioned at the time he came out of the clouds. Also, another officer told Goddard that he shouldn't take a particular flight because he foresaw Goddard crashing. The flight did crash, but Goddard survived. And in his later life, Goddard began lecturing about flying saucers and gave a lecture at Caxton Hall in London where he expounded his own theories. So, the connection between Forrestal who just had this directive from Truman meeting very speedily with Sir Henry Tizard, Air Marshal Victor Goddard, and others,

16:06I think is a very significant development. >> So, I'm I'm glad you mentioned MJ-12 because that's where I was going with Goddard. MJ-12 we've discussed this on the show before, and my viewers will know I also agree with you, Jonathan, that certainly you've got me on the first tranche of MJ-12 files. I'm in no doubt whatsoever that they are authentic. I'm yet to be convinced fully that there's not what my colleague Rob was telling me earlier is called passage material, the possibility that there might have been deliberate disinformation planted in some of the subsequent MJ-12 documents. But, let's set the scene for our audience just so they know what we're talking about. There was a Truman directive 24th of September 1947

16:52in a document that was leaked in 1980 or so to two filmmakers. And those documents became known as the Majestic 12 documents, the provenance of which is still, of course, disputed officially by the FBI and the US military. But, they established, allegedly, Majestic 12 as the group responsible for the retrieval of non-human craft. It was issued at the request of Dr. Vannevar Bush and James Forrestal, the Secretary of Defense, as you've said. And I was intrigued because you mention it in your book as one of the most consistent documents in the MJ-12 corpus, and you place strong emphasis on it being genuine. And of course,

17:38if it is true that the President Truman did issue a directive in 1947 establishing MJ-12, it creates an incredible new alternative history that would explain a lot of the secrecy pertaining to UFOs over the last 80 years. Can you set the scene for me as to why you think these documents are authentic? >> Well, um I think um the you've got to remember when they when they originated, they originated um virtually at the end of the Second World War, although there had been reports of crashes, indeed crashes, during the Second World War itself. And that was a position of um

18:25uh crisis for the United States and the world. And I think um to be told, as these documents relate, um that um the President was being informed that craft had crashed which were not of this earth, presented a new and very real threat uh to um the United States and indeed the world. And the curtain I think came down. Um Truman was very concerned about this, as were his his his staff and military staff. And uh obviously it was a matter that required very urgent attention. There were real concerns, technological concerns, about what might be gained from it. There were concerns about whether or not there was and going to be a risk of imminent attack. And there were concerns about um

19:13obviously destabilization of the populace. But I think it's the quantity of the documents. It's not just the directive. The other documents which preceded in the 1940s and in the early 1950s, uh the detail, um the um personnel involved, when you look at them and look at their histories, um they are people who um in fact did have positions um um in in uh um they're the type of people you would expect to be involved in these events. Um and I'd go into detail about some of them in the book. Uh and then you see uh communications between Forrestal immediately after this directive with other defense chiefs and

19:58allies such as Sir Henry Tizard and others. Um I think this reinforces the fact that they were presented with a crisis and they were looking um at the possibility that there might be um an attack at an a position of real security that needed to be dealt with. And the detail of the documents um check out with contemporary diaries which were not released at the time. The meetings that are referred to in the documents are reflected in the diaries of not just the president but Forrestal, Eisenhower. [clears throat] Um I've looked at the diaries of the uh head of the Atomic um Energy Commission um who um and and and and it it it it just does knit together. The only other alternative is that this

20:44is some kind of counterintelligence um operation. And I think I really do discount that because um the uh as I say, the detail checks out. They are such um a quantity of these documents, many of which don't have any counterintelligence um consequence at all. And I I'm pretty sure that most of them, not all of them, but most of them are genuine. >> Okay, let's go there for a while because I've always been intrigued by the explanation that has been offered by the debunkers that the documents were conceived by James Jesus Angleton, the notorious head of counterintelligence for the CIA, who, on the account that's given by the debunkers, he supposedly

21:30created these documents to disinform the Soviets into the belief that the Americans had recovered alien technology. And it never washed with me because I can imagine creating, as you say, one document or a couple of documents or a few documents. This is a vast trove of material, and whoever conceived the documents clearly had a knowledge of names, details, events. For example, one of the things that you point out in your book is that at the time that, um, uh, was it Truman or Eisenhower? One of the documents you talk about, the president was actually at Blair House because the White House was being

22:16rebuilt. And I I thought that was a very important detail that whoever it was, if these were fakes, they'd gone to the detail of learning where the president was at that time. It corroborates, as you say, with the diaries of individuals. In In the first case that you cited there, the meeting with Sir Henry Tizard from the UK uh, government, uh, very early after the original 24th of September 1947 directive, they held a lunch, Forrestal and Bush, Vannevar Bush, held a lunch with the British scientist Sir Henry Tizard, the chief scientific advisor to the UK Ministry of Defense, uh, on, as you say, the 1st of October 1947. They knew each other because, um, Tizard had worked on the radar, cavity

23:01magnetron radar. And as you say, it's unlikely in the extreme that they didn't brief Tizard on the UFOs issue, on Majestic. And it's interesting >> He then comes back and sets up a flying saucer working party in the Ministry of Defense. >> And and also you you correctly note that all of this is recorded in their diaries, like you're able to corroborate that these meetings took place. >> Yes. And by the way, the report which was then produced by the Ministry of Defense has these words, not precisely but almost, following the American lead, it is desirable that should be as little

23:46publicity as possible given to this matter and only one copy of this report will be produced and that will be sent to Sir Henry Tizard. So, it clearly is the case that Forrestal impressed on Tizard that this had to be kept under wraps, that they should go away and do their own research, and that they should limit the documents that they're producing possibly only for his own personal use. >> [gasps] >> Now, did you check Sir Henry Tizard's papers in the UK? Did he leave any papers? Is there any evidence that he corroborates any of this in his own personal papers? >> No, it's not hasn't been possible to do that. I've obviously had a copy managed to get a copy of the report. I did check the

24:33diary. You you've mentioned the Blair House meeting. That was a meeting held in July 1949 and one of the people that was present there was the chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, David Lilienthal. His diary is at Princeton University. And this was an off-the-record meeting. Um so I did manage to get uh access to his diary, and he refers in detail to this meeting. And um there were comments such as um b- being made by some of those present, "Well, this is um a secret we should keep to ourselves. This is not something that we should share with the British." Um and uh then there

25:21is reference uh to a report which um Truman uh is so unusual and out of this world that Truman there's only one copy of it. And uh there's no access to this agreement. And Truman says in Lilienthal records it, "Well, that agreement is staying in my safe, and nobody's having access to it." Now, of course, we don't know what it is, but in the context of the discussion that we're having, it it's very likely that it's something to do um I I would say with Majestic 12. >> Now, John, put your lawyer hat on for me for a moment. I I'm fascinated by the work that you've done. You've looked at the typography, the printing, the format, the watermarks, the terminology used, that the corroboration from other

26:07diaries. In law, one of the ways we prove a document, y- you verify the provenance of a document, is by doing that kind of work. Can you explain the significance to you as somebody who's spent a large part of your career investigating corporate frauds, corporate malfeasance, criminal frauds? Just explain to me why that's significant in terms of evidence as a lawyer. >> Well, I uh obviously um the evidence that you examine, um you're looking for corroboration. And you're looking also for inconsistencies. And i- if um the more you look at other material, uh that material corroborates and supports um

26:53the what what is in the original document, then of course the credence um is massively increased. So, um I would look for the corroboration of other witnesses. Um I would look for other documents that would detract uh from the premise that um I'm examining. And I quite frankly haven't found uh anything that does that. I have found one or two documents which are not um original, don't purport to be original um documents of the time, but which are typescript documents which were disclosed amongst the Majestic 12 material, which I do believe were forged. And one of them uh is a document

27:41uh I think um involving or headed Truman and um uh Congress. And it purports to be an account of Truman uh being uh called to give evidence at Congress um in 1960 three or 1964 uh where he's asked about MJ-12 uh and he is embarrassed and gives various answers. Now, that clearly didn't happen because I've checked with the Eisenhower Library and he was never in Washington at that time. Um so, there are documents, but not the kind of Majestic documents we're talking about which are original purport to be original documents. These are typescript documents which were distributed together with some of the original, what

28:27I say original, Majestic documents of which there were copies or originals um of the 1940s or 1950s. >> So, a lot of the classic MJ-12 documents came via a gentleman called Tim Cooper, Timothy Cooper, who was a US Marine Corps veteran and his dad, interestingly enough, and I assume this is where we're guessing he perhaps obtained them. His dad ran the reproduction and graphics at Holloman Air Force Base and printed classified material. And you've obtained key new documents that were held by Ryan Wood, who's one of the keepers of the MJ-12 archive. And I I want to go through this in some detail because I think the documents that you're highlighting

29:13they're interesting. And the second question I'm going to ask you in in preparation is why the hell haven't we seen these documents before? Why were they held back on? So, let's go through the documents. What are the key new documents that you're talking about and why do you attach significance to them? >> Well, there's two and there's a there's a a series of photographs. Um the reason I think we need to look at both separately. The two documents that are new came about because when I was in Washington about 2 years ago, I met with Ryan Wood and I asked him whether he felt that Tim Cooper had handed over all of the Majestic documents

29:58to his father when his father visited him and obtained the original tranche. Um and it sounded to me as though it was rather haphazard, that there was a filing cabinet and that Robert Wood had taken the documents that he was was offered and there might be others in the Cooper household. So, it was decided that Ryan would go back and visit Tim Cooper's house, who had not been very cooperative since and has really withdrawn from the subject. But we thought it was worth a go. And Ryan did go back to the Cooper household. Unfortunately, Tim had died quite recently. But his son was there and agreed uh that

30:44Ryan could have access to uh his father's files. And amongst the files, we found two uh new uh well, I say new documents that hadn't been disclosed before. Um and I think those are documents of significance. One of them is um the document of the uh meeting at Blair House on the 14th of July, 1949, which is part of an annex to a Majestic 12 report. Another part of that annex had already been disclosed. That was paragraphs nine, I think, onwards. This is paragraphs one to eight. And this page had not been disclosed. And this is the page which talks about

31:31um uh Truman uh wanting to share some of the Majestic material with his allies. And um it goes on to talk about um some other matters. For example, um the risks of approaching craft um and the the number of casualties that had occurred with uh air force planes being shot down, and they should take a less hostile approach to these craft because we were losing planes and and men. But I think the significance of the Blair House meeting is that um there had been a a an agreement signed um between the Americans and the British which limited the production of atomic

32:19weapons um immediately after the Second World War. And Truman and Eisenhower felt that um the risk um of uh these craft that were coming in numbers with an agenda that wasn't known might mean that we were facing imminent attack. And they wanted to increase the production of atomic weapons because they felt there might be a war that had to be fought in space. And they would have to deliver these weapons in or near to near space. But of course the problem with the bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was that they weighed 10,000 pounds and they would need to find a method of miniaturizing

33:04the weapons for delivery in any war against the invaders if this was the case. So the Blair House meeting was important from that point of view because they'd have to tell the British if they were going to increase the production of atomic weapons. And the Canadians of course were also interested in this. And that I think led to the meeting with with the British and that's why they had to bring them in and discuss the plans for possible alien defense. >> You know, it intrigues me because the implication behind that document, if it's if it's real and I suspect it is from what you reveal in your book,

33:51the implication is that there were certainly very senior public servants like Sir Henry Tizard who were being briefed into aspects of the program, the what we call today the legacy program, what was called back then Majestic 12 if we accept these documents. It suggests that there are and this is certainly my understanding that there are senior public servants who are briefed in by the Americans but that it's very rare for politicians to be briefed in. I've I've spoken to two former living Australian Prime Ministers and they swear black and blue that they've never been read into any anything relating to UAPs and it's interesting because I've had conversations with

34:38one very senior intelligence mandarin here in Australia and he's hinted very darkly that he does know something but he can't talk about it. And I suspect those kind of backroom briefings are still going on that the Americans feel a lot more comfortable sharing with permanent senior public servants than they do sharing with what they've prejudicially called temporary employees, elected politicians. Do you agree? >> I totally agree. And um I mean temporary employees are exactly what they are. They're here and they're gone. And um there's a very much greater trust for career and intelligence or military figures.

35:24Um and also I think um quite frankly um they know a lot about these figures and there's some people who are reaching positions of a political height who they don't trust and who they feel will leak like a sieve. And therefore these this this is a subject that is kept very much um amongst those who are career officials. >> One of the things in There's another document by the way which we much should come back to at some stage which uh the second document we found and the other photographs um concerning Majestic 12 but I'll >> But be before we move on from that first document though, I was going to ask you there was a claim in that first document I think that talked about the crashing of an NHI craft, the idea that there was

36:09an an alien craft that was forced to land at the White Sands Proving Ground. >> Yeah. >> What what's the detail on that? >> Well that's that I'm afraid that's that's it. I don't have any more on that and I'm hoping others will be able to take this research further but that clearly is a statement that was recorded as having been discussed at that meeting and it was in the context of that these craft are dangerous and they should only be approached when their technology even when they're on the ground it is not available to them. So I presume from that that there had been some hostile encounters with craft that had landed. >> And I was intrigued to see it also

36:55references the Mantell case which is where a fighter pilot was flying I think a P-51 Mustang as high as possible 20,000 feet to try and intercept a metallic craft and it's been dispelled and debunked over the years that he was merely chasing a cloud. The document suggests the Mantell case was indeed chasing a real non-human craft. >> Yes and that that case was cited at the Blair House meeting because too many planes were being lost in close engagements with UAPs at the time and the advice was that they should back off and not be threatening in too many close approaches.

37:41>> Okay so we've mentioned that there are two documents. Let's go to the second document. >> So the second document is a letter from Richard Drain who was secretary of the intelligence advisory committee to a man called James Lay who was secretary of the National Security Council. And it is dated late June 1953 and concerns advanced contact group meeting held at Holloman Air Force Base. And the purpose of the letter is to stress that all records of this advanced

38:26group meeting advanced contact group meeting at Holloman should be kept secret. All film should be kept secret. And none of it was to be released to anybody without a the permission of I believe it's James Lay or somebody equivalent to him. And uh that um uh the um what what the the the this documentation clearly was to be kept under lock and key wasn't to be referred to. >> It's fascinating. I think before I came on air with you, we were talking privately about the fact that Drain Richard Drain's name is all over the

39:11latest tranche of UFO files. Um he's very prominently featured in the coverage from the 1953 decision after the Robertson panel to essentially debunk UFOs. Like he played a principal role in the decision, the policy decision to essentially play down the UFO subject and to use stigma and ridicule and taboo to try to disengage public interest to stop the public from looking at the UFO subject. It fascinates me that Drain's also featured in this new MJ-12 document. >> Yes. And there's a number of names that keep appearing in these documents. Drain is one. James Lay is another. And James Lay

39:56actually appears in an earlier Majestic 12 document as having been one of the people that was consulted over Roswell. Uh and who supported the establishment of MJ-12 as a separate intelligence unit. He also interestingly was recommended by John McCone, a later director of the CIA, for a career service award um and this is from the CIA um library documents um for services in relation to intelligent projects which had involved um interagency efforts. Uh and uh obviously one doesn't see from uh uh that recommendation precisely uh what interagency project uh he worked on, but

40:42it it's very interesting um that he was commended um um uh and um uh he he figures prominently in in MJ-12 documents as does somebody else uh Robert Amory who was the Deputy Director of Intelligence at the CIA who appears to have been writing um presidential briefings um at weekly intervals to supply to the White House. So these are names that keep recurring in the documentation who seem to be very close uh to the intelligence in relation to the UAP phenomenon. >> Now let's put your legal hat back on again because we're proving the provenance of these documents and I you've done some great work in verifying by for example separate diary

41:29entries and um uh earlier documents to verify the provenance of this particular document. Take me through it. I understand for example Truman and Eisenhower's diaries had useful information to help you corroborate. >> Yes. Um um so uh the the meeting itself um is recorded in those diaries. It's an off-the-record meeting. Um it's recorded as I said also in David Lilienthal's diaries. >> And forgive me for interrupting John, the crucial point there is that at the time that these MJ-12 documents were released would the people who let's assume for a moment they were crafted documents that they were deviously crafted by some sly

42:14fellow who wanted to deceive the public. Would they have had access to Truman and Eisenhower's diaries in the way that we do know? >> I'm I I don't believe so because these diaries have only been released in succeeding years and were not available. I'm sure somebody possibly in the Central Intelligence Agency might have been able to get special access to them, but they have not been available to the public and have been kept in pretty secure conditions. >> So the point is that let's assume just hypothetically for a moment they are bunkum. It would be the most elaborate hoax to go through and anticipate the detail of knowing what Eisenhower and Truman said in their diaries to make sure that

42:59everything you wrote was consistent in a document that was leaked in the 1980s. >> Exactly. And it's the quantity of these documents, the detail in the documents which can now be confirmed in many respects. And also there are documents amongst the MJ-12 material which really don't have any particular counterintelligence benefit which are routine exchanges of letters between people with an MJ-12 stamp on. And there's no purpose in creating that kind of material. And you'd have to have had army of people really who would have had to have had a vast amount of

43:46sources to put this material together. The detail is impressive. It's consistent and as I say it's confirmed by access to range of public documents that are now available. >> So so your point is that this is significant new information. Do we have any explanation as to why Tim Cooper or Ryan Wood and his dad didn't use it previously? Were they just oblivious to it? >> Um I don't think it just wasn't handed over. I I I think um it was very much um a question of getting what Tim Cooper was prepared to give them. And some of the material was left behind. And uh that was the purpose um of my discussion with Ryan for going back to

44:32see what they could find. There's also, by the way, um a quantity of photographs um which were obtained which have never properly been looked at. Um and I I have have looked at them and have selected what I think are um some key ones. And one is an extraordinary photograph of um what is a saucer-shaped craft with a number of chairs in front of it. Um and it very much a black and white photograph. I've got the original. It's a photograph um which is consistent with um photography or photograph that the kind you have in the 1940s or the 1950s. And it is either of a saucer-shaped craft

45:19being projected onto a screen and chairs in front of it or of a craft behind a glass panel in a facility and chairs there for people to observe it. But it it is I can't vouch for its provenance, but it does look to me like a genuine photograph. Also, amongst those photographs were photographs of a number of people with MJ-12 on the back. And these were um scientists, many of them paper clip scientists, who um we know from other sources um have worked for MJ-12. And um those are people like um John von Neumann, uh uh Szilard, Edward Teller, and um from other sources we know um

46:07that um for example, uh Dr. Eric Walker has spoken to other uh ufologists many years ago, William Steinman, to confirm um that von Neumann actually was working at MJ-12, and Eric Walker confirms he had worked at MJ-12. Um we know also um that um uh uh others have confirmed who were um uh working at that time on these projects that von Neumann was working uh on MJ-12 project. I did ring the von Neumann family and try to speak to von Neumann's wife, who's now quite elderly, and I couldn't really um um um uh press, I'm afraid, to confirm what her hus- what her husband's

46:52work was 70 years ago. >> I want to jump back for a moment to the earlier document that you mentioned, the so-called advanced contact meeting at Holloman. The inference there is that there was some kind of contact with a UAP and its occupants, an alien spacecraft. Are you giving credence from that document to the idea that there was a secret meeting between the president and non-human beings at Holloman Air Force Base? >> I'm not saying the president, uh but I'm certainly saying that um there was a secret contact meeting, a contact group meeting at Holloman, and that this document confirms it. And there's a CIA reference number, obviously, on the document for which you can obviously

47:38others can uh look at. Um and that seems to have been confirmed because um um uh we know that um um uh Dr. Eric Davis has recently spoken um uh about a conversation he had uh with President Bush senior and uh he says that um Bush told him that when he became director of the um uh CIA he was briefed about a landing at Holloman not with a president but with a number of uniformed officers and CIA officers that had taken place and that a um a a non-human

48:23um individual of Nordic appearance had emerged from a craft and had met uh with these individuals at Holloman. I have never been persuaded myself that any president has had a meeting but I do believe um that uh what Bush um told uh Eric Davis is likely to be true and I do believe that this document because of the secrecy that was being imposed by Draine in the letter to delay um is confirming that uh this was either a meeting or plans for a contact meeting which was to be kept under very strict wraps. And that um Allen Dulles had been

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