ג׳ונתן קפלן אצל ג׳סי מייקלס: עב״מים והמלוכה

3:04kind of macro uh big history book around the UFO topic. It does a lot of sensemaking. Um there are all sorts of really interesting tidbits I want to dive into. You are a member of the King's Council and rumors are that you've had some interactions possibly with the royal family around this issue. So, there's so many things I want to dive into. Thank you for being here, Jonathan. >> Thank you, Jesse, for having me. I'm really excited. Um, so why don't we just, you know, I sort of teased people with that intro there. Uh, talk about the fact that you are a member of the Kings Council. I think people with your sort of conventional credentials aren't often into UFOs. Uh, it seems like you have some reason to believe that people at the highest levels of British politics, you know, even, you know,

3:50symbolic figureheads like, uh, the royal family are interested in UFOs. Is that right? >> Yes. So I mean I can't speak about um living members of the royal family but when I became involved in this subject um 50 years ago now I was working on the editorial board of a magazine called flying saucer review which we became quite well known. Uh it had correspondents like uh the young Jacqu Valet and others on it. And one of my tasks was to deliver each copy of the magazine to the Equiry uh to Prince Phillip. And Prince Phillip uh he's no longer with us uh was very interested in this subject. Uh so was his eurquy and um on occasions they would interview

4:37quite key witnesses to uh significant EUO events at the palace. >> Really? >> Yes. So, Prince Phillip would bring in witnesses to significant UFO events and personally no his inquiry would uh it was obviously with Prince Philillip's consent and full knowledge and uh then his inquiry would prepare a transcript on a report and they would discuss it. That's wild. What are examples of cases? Well, there was a famous case involving a BOAC strata cruiser with Captain Howard. I remember that was one case. Explain to the audience what is BOAC? So BOAC was the old terminology for British Airways and

5:23um there was a case involving a plane coming from New York and uh flying saucer had uh cited by the passengers and the pilot on that plane and they were very keen to find out more about it and Captain Howard bravely in those days reported the sighting because pilots were pretty much penalized if they did that in in back in the 1970s60s. 10 of us, the entire crew and some of the passengers watched this object for 18 minutes and I think there's no question that it was no illusion and that it was being intelligently handled. >> Interesting. And so there's a sighting and then the the Prince Philip asked to

6:08learn more essentially through >> his would find out more and uh he was his equ of course was um great friends with people who were on active service in the uh Royal Air Force. they would tell him of sightings that the air force was having and yep uh they wanted to collect uh a database so they could have discussions and keep up to date with what was a fascinating phenomenon even then. >> What what were the exact details around this British Airways sighting? I don't honestly remember the precise details of that case except that a a flying saucer was reported by Captain Howard to have followed the crow the aircraft for quite a while.

6:53>> Any other prominent cases that uh Prince Philip seemed to inquire into? >> Yes, there was a case involving two school boys um in Darbisha who took a photograph of three UFOs. Um that photograph showed three flying saucers and they wanted to speak to the boys and find out more about the circumstances in which they took the photographs. How do you think Prince Philip got interested in the subject to begin with? Well, I think um he was a very open-minded individual and he uh was obviously in in touch with people in the armed forces and of course the air force uh were obviously a significant

7:39part of uh his duties and he would have had contact with very senior air force officers. Um so I I think probably through uh talking with them and um his inquiry then had went on uh which he wrote about in a book called Sounds from another room to have a rather strange experience which was that he was invited by a army general to go to Chelsea to meet a lady called Mrs. Markham and uh she had wanted to meet him to discuss the EUO situation and he went and when he got there he found a man in a rather dimly lit room who uh was

8:26introduced as Mr. Janus who then proceeded to ask him about Prince Phillip and then to ask him about what he knew about the topic of uh UFOs and uh the then said well from then on I knew he could read my mind and he was telling me a lot of uh secrets uh which I had learned through my position as being a member of the Royal Air Force and through my life in the palace and I realized ized that this was a man to be reckoned with and Mr. Janus's objective was he very much wanted to be introduced to Prince Phillip whom he described as a man who was obviously uh very keen on

9:11ecology who was very open-minded and who would be a great ambassador for uh the human race. Uh but um uh the Aquari then became rather nervous obviously uh left and made a note as contemporaneous as he as he could remember it of that discussion in which Mr. Janus told him quite a bit about um advanced civilizations and how they were very keen to uh um develop uh um another race and to help that race progress and um to save this planet. And that note

9:56obviously would have been taken to Prince Philillip. Uh but he decided against making an introduction although he did go back to try to contact Mrs. Malcolm later and um she had moved. >> Wow. Fascinating. Who do you think Mr. Janus was? >> Well, S Peter Horley who was the Equiry clearly thought that he was an extraterrestrial or or a non-human intelligence, let's say. He said extraterrestrial at the time because that was the uh focus for um the pilots of these craft as they understood it in those days. Um, and uh, probably he may have been because the uh, he certainly was communicating with Peter Horley on other levels besides vocally and letting him know that uh, he had quite advanced

10:43psychic powers. Um, and I suspect it was a genuine attempt to try to meet Prince Phillip. So, one of Prince Philip's chief aids openly writes about meeting with a person quote unquote who seems to know a ton about UFOs and ETSs and then even read his mind and he himself speculates that this person is actually nonhuman. >> Yes, he formed that view pretty quickly and he could not have written his book without Prince Phillip's approval. >> Fascinating. Wow. Okay. Well, that's very interesting. Who is uh Lord Louis Mount Baton? >> So Lord Louie Mountbatton um is um a was a senior member of the

11:28royal family. He was he was actually killed on his boat when it was blown up by the IRA. Uh he was uh is our current king's uncle and he too was interested and there are many stories um about his interest. He served in the Royal Navy during the war and a craft was supposed to have landed on his estate at Broadlands and to have been seen by the gardener and uh Lord Mount Batton was supposed then to have interviewed him and uh again to have passed that to Prince Phillip >> and and did he sort of help get Prince Philip interested in this subject or >> I don't know which way round that interest um started.

12:14Uh but they were clearly both interested. And funnily enough, um you can go forward to a journalist who figured quite prominently in UFO history later, a an American journalist called Dorothy Kilgallon. Uh she died in very mysterious circumstances. Uh she was a friend of Marilyn Monroe. She was um a friend of uh the Kennedes and um she wrote an article when she was stationed in London in 1955 which for its day was quite surprising because she said that she had been informed by reliable sources that a craft had crashed and that there were

12:59small humanoids aboard the craft and that she'd been informed by a very senior cabinet member. Now, nobody quite knows who her source was, but Tim Good, who's a friend of mine and of course has written a number of excellent UFO books, has speculated, and I've gather from another source, although I can't be quite certain that that source was Lord Mountbatton. >> Wow. Interesting. So, he might have been familiar with actual crash retrieval. >> He could well have been. Yes. And um do you think King Charles is interested in UFOs? >> I wouldn't be surprised. >> Um why can't you talk about your current interactions? >> Well, I mean I wouldn't talk about any

13:44uh living person about their views. I think those are personal and >> because there are rumors that he's interested, >> I believe. So, yes. >> Yeah. Fair enough. There's even um uh we were talking earlier, there's um a UFO researcher out here named Mark Christopher Lee. He made a whole documentary about UFOs and the royal family. And in it, he interviews this guy, Dan Castello. I don't know if you've heard that name. He was this guy who was he was a diver in Nova Scotia on what he claims to be some top secret project. And he said that he saw King Charles flying in a saucer and he's been in the room with some of these royal family members. And I don't know what to make of it. >> Well, I I'm afraid I don't know what to make of that either.

14:30Yeah, it's pretty wild. But the royal interest in UFOs, it doesn't occur in sort of a vacuum. Like I think a lot of European elites seem interested in the subject. Uh the royal prince of uh Likensstein, Hans Adams II, uh is also interested in UFOs. So much so that, you know, he's in photos with Bob John who was, you know, running the Princeton uh Anomalous Engineering Research Center pair um and with Hal Putoff and I believe Ed May who you know helped run the psychic spy program for the CIA has stories with uh uh the Royal Prince of Likenstein. So I think there is there's some you know connection there. I think there is I think that the the European royals have got a tradition of being

15:15interested in this subject and without going too far on a limb I think the same is true in Monaco. >> Interesting. So why do you think that? >> Well, just from conversations I've been privy to uh and I've listened to, I think that's the case. >> And what can you say anything more? No, I I just think that um uh that that they have an active interest. >> Okay. And is any of this public? Have they said anything? >> Okay. So, they might have an active interest as well. >> Interesting. And then where do you think the interest stems from? Do you think it's one of those things where it's like if you fulfilled the lower end of Maslo's hierarchy, you know, you got food and all this sort of basic

16:00subsistence level stuff down, which obviously any member of the royal family does. you can start to deal with esquetology and life on other planets visiting us and that sort of thing or is it a more intimate connection and do you think they sort of try to commune or contact these things or might have an asymmetric view into the technology? I don't know of any um actual contact desire or attempts but I guess um once you don't have to uh deal with the daily problems uh you know your mind is freer to range about to the possibly greater issues and I think probably I think there's um a discussion amongst

16:46different royal families and different families of wealth could talk about the Rockefellers you talk about others. Um and uh this is a topic uh which has interested them. I mean who are we? Where have we come from? Uh what do these sightings signify? Um I think this is not just dinner table talk. I think it's something that they're deeply interested in. >> Yeah. Well, Eric Walker, who is president of Penn State and he was rumored to be on the Majestic 12. In fact, one of um Vanavar Bush's sort of top, you know, research guys, Robert Sarbacher, who's an atomic energy expert, said Eric Walker, uh was privy to Wright Patterson Air Force Base at the time, Wright Airfield debriefs on

17:32the UFO issue and and knows all about it. And a couple of researchers, um, you know, walked into his office and spoke to him. William Steinman, I think. >> Bill Steinman. Exactly. And Scott Crane. And they were asking him about, you know, UFOs. And he said, uh, elite families seem to have this long history with the topic and know all about this. And so I find that to be very interesting along with the fact that you have, you know, Chris Melon is at the, you know, forefront of the conversation in the US. He's obviously like, I believe, one of the sole heirs to the Melon family fortune. And um the Rockefellers funded a lot of UFO research. Um in the '90s they were funding John Mack and Steven Greer. Um so they were all kind of all over this topic. Yeah, I agree with that. And uh I

18:18I think there is a tradition of being interested in this subject and um yeah I mean um Eric Walker and Sbacker as you say were um um linked to well Walker was anyway to MJ12 and um yeah I don't know how how officially linked they are but privately they certainly are linked and I think have been prepared under certain circumstances of privacy to invest in acquiring greater knowledge. >> You talk about in your book a very accomplished Israeli official who has all sorts of accolades uh you know when it comes to uh Israeli defense uh in fact kind of set up the equivalent of

19:03the space force in Israel uh saying all sorts of really interesting things about UFOs. Do you want to talk more about that? >> Sure. So um I think it's probably back going back now about 6 years. Um a book was published I think in December 2020 by a uh astrophysicist called Haime Mashed. He was really the father of the Israeli uh space industry and um had been responsible for the early Israeli satellites. And in a book um Beyond the Horizon, which has only ever been published in Hebrew or uh the last part of the book deals with uh his comments on UFOs, crashes, and

19:51what he's learned about the subject. And at the it was co-authored in fact by an Israeli journalist called um uh Hannar Yagai. And he then at the same time gave one interview um just prior to publication to an Israeli newspaper. And that interview went actually even further than book and talked about agreements between the United States uh one or two other countries and a federation called the what he called the Galactic Federation. So basically you have this very esteemed Israeli scientist talking about crashes, talking about uh the acknowledgement of um non-human intelligences, talking about agreements with terrestrial governments.

20:38And it was pretty astounding. And that interview um in the newspaper uh pretty much like David Gus's evidence to Congress in July 2023 went around the world and I thought well um I must make some contact in the Israeli space agency quickly and I went to uh Israel to try to contact him and extraordinarily he went completely to found. He wasn't answering the phone. He wasn't answering emails. >> Had you been in contact with him before that? >> No, but I I got a very senior contact in the space agency uh to work on my behalf

21:23to try to contact him. So I contacted his co-author Hagarani and she said, "I really can't speak about the book at all and I can give you no interviews." So you've got this extraordinary situation of uh this book being published neither um Eshed or or Yaga wanting to give any interview and in fact closing down completely and the book has never been published in English and I got it translated and it is very interesting and it not only deals with crashes that are not well known in the literature but It deals also with um his interpretation of photos taken

22:10from rovers which we've sent to Mars uh picking out signs of intelligent life. And it speaks also about uh as I say these agreements between the Israelis, the English, the Japanese, and one or two other countries with the Galactic Federation. Now the only problem is um that we just don't know uh what his source of information was and therefore it's very difficult to evaluate what he said. Um I spoke at the time. >> Well presumably he would be the source of information if you're that high up in the >> he was but then you want to know well okay so were you briefed by um American intelligence officials or counterparts

22:56in uh NASA? How did you acquire this information? >> Yeah, because he he says some really out there stuff. I'm combining >> the press interview he did and his book, but he says that an elliptical craft that was found in 2000 BC was discovered or sorry, it was dated to 2000 BC was discovered in Comanche Point in the Grand Canyon. And so, and there's all these conspiracies about why, you know, parts of the Grand Canyon are restricted zones. And so, he sort of like >> attempts at an answer at that. And then uh we've had 30 UFO crashes to date. And uh he says, "Yeah, we have agreements with the Galactic Federation." And then he talks about uh bases on Mars. Yes. With humans and ETS, we've flown to Mars. You've already

23:42we've already been there, >> right? >> Um so I guess that throws back obviously lots of questions. Um you know, well h how is the uh you know, the reverse engineer, how successful has the reverse engineering program been? Are we in some kind of agreement with some nonhuman uh intelligence that will allow us to use their craft? What is Navy Space Command? And all these questions are of course, you know, up in the air. >> Yeah. And we can speculate about it. Um, but I obviously I I I say in my book, treat this with a little bit with caution because unless we know the mechanism by which he uh purports to have acquired this information, we just

24:27can't evaluate it. >> I think that's right. I think that's right with a lot of UFO research and I was reading your book and you lend a lot of credibility to the Majestic 12 documents which are these documents that were sort of released in tranches from the 80s to the '90s that described this sort of elite military intelligence and science committee under Truman and Eisenhower that deal with the UFO issue. And my understanding is that they were released as kind of a counterintel initiative under James Jesus Angleton who is this longtime you know spook Allan Dulles acolyte in the US who you know professionally lied and liked to throw people off the trail and that sort of thing. And yet you note that there are some things in those documents that

25:12line up with real historical artifacts, diary entries that came out years later. Uh which is fascinating. Um, I'm perfectly willing to subscribe to the view that some of those documents might not be genuine, but I am firmly of the view that the vast majority of them are. And first of all, let's just take the argument that these were some counterintelligence exercise by Angleton. And there's another gentleman that's mentioned who's still alive, a certain admiral who I won't mention perhaps on live who's supposed to have been part of this exercise. Well, who's that? >> I was Bobby Inman is supposed to >> part of that >> allegedly. I mean, this is what people say whether it's true or not. >> Who says that? >> Well, I've heard it from a number of

25:57people and I'm not saying it's true for a minute that that's that's a rumor that has gone round, >> but I I really don't buy it. Um, so first of all, let's just look at this as um a counter inelligence exercise. If Roswell happened, if a craft was recovered, as I'm firmly convinced it was at Corona, if it was then the subject of a highly classified reverse engineering program, and that is your biggest secret, one of the biggest uh secrets in the United States, the last thing you are going to do is to give credence to the discovery of that craft and of the reverse

26:43engineering programs that have been set in train. >> Maybe or maybe not. >> Well, here can I can I sure give you my counter argument? So, uh the 70s 60s and 70s saw peak distrust in the American government. You have, you know, the church committee, you have Watergate, you have the Pentagon papers before, you know, both of those things. And you just have a lot of irreverence and distrust of the American intelligence apparatus. And so in the 80s, I almost think there was like a deliberate strategy on behalf of, you know, the CIA and sort of bodies like that to flood the zone because they realized they weren't seen as uh, you know, good narr narrator, you know, solid narrators anymore. And so what

27:29they put out would inherently be doubted. So if you actually put out the truth or put out things that are adjacent to the truth, you're sort of inoculating the public against, you know, actually believing it. Whereas if some irreverent open- source person were to preemptively put it out, then you know people might actually believe it. But I don't know. What do you What do you think? >> I still think you're going to protect this. You're not going to But there's there's other actually independent evidence. So the Truman directive uh which uh initiated MJ12 was um allegedly signed on the 24th of September 1947. And you can go to uh Truman's diary. You can go to Forestl's diary. I don't think Bush has one that's available. And

28:16you'll see at 11:30 a.m. on that date, the three met. >> Doesn't end there. Today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Quo, the business communication system built so you never miss a call. Your entire team can handle calls and texts from one shared number. So, no more missed messages or dropped conversations. Everyone sees the full thread, replies are faster, and customers actually feel taken care of. It's the number one rated business phone system on G2, which is the premier place where you review these sort of workspace applications. It has over 3,000 reviews there, and more than 90,000 businesses rely on it to stay connected. So, it has an amazing track

29:02record. No vanishing, no fusing into calendars, just your team fully entangled and synced across time zones, timelines, and even caffeine levels. Money is on the line. Always say hello with Quo. Try Quo for free. Plus, get 20% off your first 6 months when you go to quo.com/jesse. That's quo.comjesse. You can go to Truman's diary. You can go to Forestl's diary. I don't think Bush has one that's available. And you'll see at 11:30 a.m. on that date, the three met. >> Doesn't end there. Uh I looked at Forestl's diary even further. Go one

29:47week on to the 1st of October 1947. And there is Foresterl uh meeting uh with um uh Sir Henry Tisdell who is or then was the chief scientific adviser to the UK Ministry of Defense. So he and Bush are meeting with Tisl one week later and there are then during the month of October further meetings with three other senior British Air Force officers. um Forestl, sometimes Eisenhower, sometimes others. What then happens? A Tisdel comes back to London. He sets up in the Ministry of Defense a secret

30:32flying saucer working party. >> That working party a report is then published, but only one copy. And it says in the preface to that report, only one copy of this report is being published for Sir Henry Tisdell >> following the lead from the Americans that this subject should be given as little publicity as possible. >> And we know that that that's a fact. The Tisl working UFO group >> a few weeks later. That's wild. That's really interesting. So So you have this sort of >> chain of events from Forestall to Tisdall. >> That's amazing. >> Yeah. So I mean that that I think also I think you've then got to look at the detail. There's a lot of majestic documents um which are memos, letters

31:21that serve no counter intelligence purpose. And you look at the personnel involved in those memos, pe people like uh James Lei, Richard Drain, who I've looked at through the CIA reading room to see who they were. And these guys were very closely involved with committees that were actually looking at UFOs. And uh James Lei actually received from John McCone uh the director of CIA um an award um uh really for um serving on a project which uh which had um multi- agency involvement and it it all of these documents uh really tie in with the the uh UFO uh enigma and you look at

32:09the minutes of other meeting uh meetings that they were concerned concerned with as UAPs, UFO engagement in those minutes and they just seem like the real guys. And so I believe Dulles also his diary came out, you know, only a few years ago or something and there was an entry there that was consistent with the Majestic 12 document. Is that right? >> I don't have that to mind immediately. >> I Yeah, I believe so. Um, very interesting. Yeah, Forestall's fascinating. He was obviously, you know, um, assistant secretary of the Navy and then I think Secretary of the Navy and then he ended up uh, Secretary of Defense and I believe the Majestic 12 said he was killed over the UFO issue. Yes. And I I've looked at that. By the way, I should just add um that as far as

32:55MJ12 is concerned, of course, you have got other independent corroboration. Um, for example, um, you've got Eric Walker, who you mentioned earlier, who was approached by William Steman, and in a taped conversation, I think it's taped, at least of contemporaneous notes, he says, "Yes, I know of MJ12. I've worked with MJ12." Um, and you've also got uh, I think it's Alonzo McDonald who confirmed to Eric Davis recently uh, yes, that MJ12 existed. Well, I believe Alonzo McDonald was also supposed to be in Jimmy Carter's uh brief on UFOs. >> Yeah. Um but going back to um Foresterl um I I that is again a a very

33:41interesting adjunct to the MJ12 story because uh he became I would say slightly unstable and certainly mentally exhausted and Truman then dispensed with his services as Secretary of Defense and as we know he was admitted to Bethesda um Naval Hospital And the day before his he was held in isolation. Even his brother uh had difficulty in seeing him. Uh his priest Monsa Shehi who Forest very much wanted to see would never gained access. And his brother arranged for him to be released after about 6 or 8 months. And he was quite satisfied as was his wife and son that he was in good health. And

34:28the day before he was released, I think the Saturday night, he was due to be collected by his brother on the Sunday. Um he was found um on a flat roof uh below uh um having allegedly fallen out of a window on the 19th floor, I think, with a bathrobe cord tied around his neck. That's the day before he was due to be released. And so obviously the question arises, well >> anyways, midway through transcribing a Sophocles poem. Yeah, correct. >> Which like why would you stop midway through your transcription and then jump out of the window? And I think the bath robe also part of it was like tied to the radiator. Yes. In the bathroom, which doesn't make sense. >> Makes no sense as a way to kill yourself. >> Um there was a naval inquiry um which

35:15was held behind closed doors. Uh because it was a naval institution, there was no uh inquest. Um, I think the broken glass was found on the floor on a rug in his room. Um, but they called no family members and his brother was convinced uh that his um uh he that Forestl was murdered. >> The official story, the cord slipped off the radiator and he just plunges to his death. Let's look a little more realistically here. How difficult would it be couple of big tough Navy guys or big tough young guys grab him and throw him the hell out the window? Do uh you mention also the the office in the CIA that is responsible for UFO inquiries. Uh do do you want to mention that here?

36:01>> Um well I mean there's the I mentioned a number of offices actually in the CIA. >> Yes. >> And um one of them uh is the counterpoliferation mission. >> Um is that the one you had in mind? >> I did but also office of global access for global crash retrieval. But that's the rename. Now the office of global access has now been renamed and that basically is an office uh which has always existed as far as I understand it and its purpose is to either collect uh items from uh difficult jurisdictions or to drop people or items in difficult jurisdictions. and therefore I think it was um an existing facility which was

36:48lent to the purpose of crash retrievals. Now there are two I think very clear examples or credible examples of that office going into work. Um one of course we most of us know about the case of um Vina >> Mhm. and the crash of a uh UAP there and the recovery of at least one live alien and an American plane landed at Compinas. >> Mhm. >> And collected uh the craft and the alien. Um now I think there are moves of foot at the moment to try to recover the airport logs in relation to that airport. Um, but that seems almost

37:35certainly to have been an event that occurred. There is so much evidence now that has been uncovered. >> Yeah, I interviewed the Brazilian defense minister and he was like, "Yeah, I think this happened." >> Of course, I believe him. Why wouldn't I? >> Believing that a phenomenon like this exists. Of course, the testimony of totally credible witnesses. Same goes for the doctor and the military officers. They had no reason to make it up. And there we have 15 to 20 witnesses who are alive today. We have we've triangulated the fight flight path of the UFO itself. James Fox has done an amazing job documenting all this stuff in moment of contact. >> And there's you know the chief neurosurgeon of Barginia uh says he was face to face with the alien being for 4 minutes. If you go to the hospital

38:20Regian Alice where the being was treated and you say is this the you know hospital that treated the being? They say yes this is this is that hospital. And so it's one of these things that's very hard to explain away, especially at a in a town of 130,000 people that wasn't like mired in Americana UFO lore, you know, like they didn't have any priors to bias them towards hallucinating something like this. And indeed, I mean, uh, one of the, uh, emergency rescue staff actually died and, um, I can't remember his name at the moment. >> Marco Sherezi. >> Yes. and they did um uh uh an autopsy report on him and I think it discovered the um form of um yeah bacteria that was

39:06way too strong. Yeah, >> it was anomalously strong. And uh even the guy who was uh the president of the actual autopsy company, the provider IPD, I think his name is Janini, he's on record saying, "Yeah, the nail of the ET penetrated the skin of Sherezi and that's what ended up killing him." And he was telling his whole family, his family believes that he died because he he apprehended this ET being and it it poked him or whatever and it accidentally sort of killed him. Uh, so yeah, there's so much corroboration for that. It's just fascinating. And I actually interviewed the guy >> who did the autopsy. Um, yeah, Arando Fortunado and he was like, "Yeah, I think this is totally legit."

39:52>> The infection he had is extremely rare, not impossible. A scratch or some sort of contact with an extraterrestrial shouldn't be ruled out. >> So, that's one case. Y and then there's another case which depends very much on the word of the individual but he's very compelling >> uh which is the case of Jonathan Wagant in Peru where he was sent he was on on um duty in in Peru at at a a a station and was sent to the scene of what they understood to be a downed aircraft and of course it was discovered um a teardropshaped object and felt the presence of the occupant And no sooner had he arrived there, it

40:39was clearly no craft he'd ever seen. Um but um soldiers in fatigues arrive, as do the Department of Energy, he is um taken under arrest, threatened, ultimately released. But I think very likely uh and I believe his evidence is credible. That is another instance of a craft being covered this recovered this time from Peru via the same process. Yeah, I think he was a marine and it was operation laser strike and he saw this egg-shaped craft in the side of this mountain and then an arm was hanging out and he and he walked up to it and he he felt like this telepathic connection with the beings and a lot of pain and which is a common sort of trope >> and yeah he was he was I think then >> uh really kind of intimidated and I

41:26think he's never been kind of mentally the same since >> I felt this presence that it's real strange. I guess it was almost like I think they were trying to communicate with me like I guess telepathically. It's it's like basically sitting in your car and turn on like a AM station, you know, it's just white noise and just turning up really high. >> And my understanding is that um so that obviously I I'm not sure this is done obviously presumably by arrangement with those particular governments. It's not landing and taking a craft although I believe they've done that. Uh this is obviously by negotiation. Either they're paid or or they get access to information later. I don't know. But I think um many countries and I suspect this is true of Five Eyes uh defer now

42:13to the American experience and ability to deal with the many problems that surround crashed craft and possibly biologics. And my understanding is that in the five eyes countries um there will be special forces of those countries but who work under American command and we'll go and isolate an area and wait for the Americans to come in to pick it up. >> How does this subject gain sort of broader appeal? Because when you talk about this stuff on the one hand it seems like the most important thing ever. You're like oh my god there's like technology that's far more advanced than us that's in the hands of the government. They're not letting it out. there's also, you know, possibly species beyond beyond just mankind. And then on the other hand, uh it feels kind of

42:58goofy. Yeah. It's like what what are you talking about? you know, and it feels sort of like uh divorced from normal geopolitical discussions like if you're talking about like the straight of Hormuz that has real implications for you know oil prices globally and stuff and this is very difficult because the the you know the the traditional question do you believe in UFOs as it were so far beyond that and now when you have this discussion you have got to deal with concepts that are so I was going to use the word alien but let's use another word that are so um bizarre to most people and you're talking about crashed craft. I think it's a little easier to deal with those because of David Grush's live testimony to Congress

43:44and because people have come forward from the intelligence um agencies since just to say yes uh we are in possession of crash craft. And I think it is an open secret now that these special access projects exist in the United States with Loheed Martin, with Northrock Grman, with Rathon that Loheed wanted to transfer a craft to Bigalow Aerospace. All of these things now have I would say in the last three years come within just about uh the terms of acceptability in normal conversation. But then of course they're pushed even further because you'll note from David Gish's interview, we're now talking about firefights with um uh you know um

44:32uh different species, >> US personnel started, you know, getting hurt and dying and so >> so US personnel was killed by these reptilians. >> Yeah. My whole purpose in writing the book is that I really wanted to uh have an informed debate and based on reliable evidence and to involve academia and um I think that is absolutely fundamental because this process of um degrading this subject since the 1940s since Truman's directive has been so successful that you you know, very intelligent people like I do who have no knowledge of this. They don't have a no

45:17reading list. They don't know where to go and there's plenty of good material to read. There's no syllabus or course to get hold of or sign up to. So, we do need to widen um this if we're going to actually, you know, permeate society and get some proper disclosure through um open debate. But the discussion is getting wilder. And I'm not saying it's not true. Uh I suspect and I think David Gush by the way is a very credible witness but we are getting wilder. >> Oh yeah. I mean on Joe Rogan he said that he saw a video of Nordic beings, aliens that looked like bluish in, you know, die and and in this sort of firefight or whatever and then he saw this sort of fight between gray aliens

46:03and reptilians >> and and reptilians. and the reptilians are in these tic tac crafts and it is very wild. It's like uh okay, I want to I want to see the evidence on that. It's pretty pretty gnarly. But then you compare that to his background and I mean David Gres while he was in in government was handling the presidential daily brief. So what the president saw every day you know that that was his job to handle um you know he was very high up in you know national geospatial agency. He was very, you know, well thought of by a lot of colleagues like, you know, Carl Nell, who who helped set up Army Futures Command, which is, you know, their their kind of all of their modernization efforts was in, you know, Army Futures. Um, so this is not like some guy who's, you know, honorable

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