שימוע עב״מים בבית הנבחרים: גרוש, גרייבס ופרייבור

2:24sighting that when he makes that report to the FAA that it would come to Congress. But I was told that the intelligence community did not like that and the bill was the amendment was not even heard in committee. I think it's time for this country to take back our country. We need to tell the folks at the Pentagon they work for us. God gamut we don't work for them. And that's exactly the point. This is an issue of government transparency. We can't trust a government that does not trust its people. We're not bringing little green men or flying saucers into the hearing. Sorry to disappoint about half y'all. We're just going to get to the facts. We're going to uncover the cover up. And I hope this is just the beginning of many more hearings and more people coming forward about this. And I yield back the remainder of my time. Um I

3:09think is it to Representative Luna, Mr. Chairman, or is that Yeah, we'll we'll call Miss Luna for her statement. The circumstances surrounding UAPs has captivated the intention of the American people for decades, ingrained in even the minds of our nation's leaders. From Jimmy Carter to Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton to Donald Trump, Marco Rubio to Chuck Schumer, John Radcliffe to National Security Council officials. Yet, from Roswell, New Mexico to the coast of Jacksonville, Florida, the sightings of UAPs have rarely been explained by the people who have firsthand accounts of these situations. This is largely due to the lack of transparency by our own government and the failure of our elected leaders to make good on their promises to release explanations and footage and mountains of overclassified documents that continue to be hidden from the American

3:54people. This isn't just how I feel. In fact, the American people largely believe that the government has actively covered up the truth about UAPs. One poll in particular found that 68% of Americans believe that the government is hiding information about UAPs and not being honest about what we know about them. And from my personal experience, I believe the same thing. Another poll found that nearly half Americans believe that the federal government is doing a very bad or somewhat bad job of dealing with reports of UFO sightings. As Representative Burchett just referenced on the FA bill that just went through, you can tell that that's exactly happening. Considering the thousands of testimonies and videos taken on people's phones and eyewitnesses accounts made by credible witnesses such as doctors, pilots, scientists, and active duty

4:39service members, it is unacceptable to continue to gaslight Americans into thinking that this is not happening or that the potential of intelligence uh intelligent life forms exist other than humans. Even more alarming is the fact that these eyewitnesses are many of times service members and have no assurance that their lives will not be negatively impacted or even harmed by their experiences. In being an active duty service member working on an airfield, I've had conversations with many pilots where they were in fear of coming forward for retribution andor being taken off flight status. How do we know this? Because the government has said nothing to assure us otherwise. They have also did nothing to um to calm the concerns of over 20% of Americans who have reported to have seen UFOs or UAPs. We are simply told not to question

5:25the government and that the government has it under control. Today is the first hearing of its kind where we will attempt to get down to the bottom of what is actually happening with UAPs, but we will hear from people who have had personal sightings rather than Pentagon bureaucrats who have always been sent to stonewall our investigations. Just so that the press knows and the people know, we were even denied access to a classified briefing in a skiff prior to this hearing due the amount of hoops that we had to jump through to grant temporary clearance to witness Grush who has knowledge of classified information. It is time to have an open-minded discussion on this topic to hear the evidence and understand the magnitude of what this means not just for our nation but for humanity. Thank you, Chairman. I yield back the rest of my time. Thank you very much. And I'd like to thank you. Thank you and Mr. Burchett

6:10for bringing this topic to my attention. Uh now we'll recognize National Security Subcommittee Ranking Member Garcia for 10 minutes. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank first our witnesses for joining us today. Um I want to begin by thanking you all for your service to our country um and for sharing your voices uh today and your courage uh to be here as well. Uh to Mr. Graves, I particularly grateful to you to spend some time uh that we had um for you to share with Cander um some of your experiences. So, I appreciate that. Uh as well, I do want to thank all the members of our subcommittee today and also those that are here uh and have waved on for the their incredible interest in this issue. Uh particularly to Congressman Burchett. I know that your leadership um has brought us to this place today and I want to thank you

6:55for uh for that as well as everyone else that's been engaged in this work. I also want to thank the oversight staff who I know has been working very hard to ensure uh that today's hearing is serious, that it's transparent, and that it also provides appropriate answers as our oversight body um always demands. Now, it's really important that we're here in a bipartisan way uh to have this conversation which really to the heart of it is about national security and key to the subcommittee's core purpose. This is the subcommittee on national security of the oversight committee. Now, our witnesses will testify today that UAPs have posed a serious safety threat, and we must understand this. More broadly, we're dealing with real questions that get to the heart of our faith in government. Faith in our institutions, as we all know, is at an all-time low.

7:40Partisanship and alternative facts make it too easy to doubt narrative or into or our institutions. But this hearing will offer the public unique perspectives, building on years of reporting by both federal agencies and the independent media. Now, some of the earliest reporting on this issue was a groundbreaking uh 2017 New York Times report which we which revealed research as we know now on unidentified anomalous phenomena as many call UFOs by the Defense Intelligence Agency. Mr. Graves and Commander Favor's experiences with UAPs have also been documented by the public, not just by the New York Times, but CNN and many other national news outlets. Now, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence has published public reports documenting UAPs. And on June 9th, 2022, NASA announced that the

8:25agency is commissioning a study to, of course, examine unidentified anomalous phenomena. Now, the sheer number of reports, whistleblowers, and stories of unidentified anomalous phenomena should raise real questions and warrant investigation and oversight, and that's why we are here today. Now, pilots have reported encounters for years. Now, because of the stigma around reporting these incidents, we still don't have a complete picture of actually what's going on, particularly as your witnesses will testify on the civilian side, and that is a real problem that we have today in the country. Now, it's very important that we show that Democrats and Republicans in Congress can come together in a bipartisan way to cut through misinformation and to look at the facts in a serious and thoughtful manner. If we are to advance oversight and public disclosure, we must also gain

9:10the broad support of the public. We will succeed getting facts out to the public faster if there is a broad public support as part of the process. Now, I understand fully the Department of Defense is hesitant to share information that could also undermine our national security by revealing information on the capabilities of our own aircraft, our sensors, and other sensitive material. At the same time, many people believe that we're withholding information from them, and that is dangerous. Also, I believe in openness and transparency. That is also the role of Congress. And I want to trust that the American people will be able to weigh the evidence and make up their own minds. Now, we have incidents when sensors, sometimes even multiple types of sensors, detect things that we cannot explain. UAPs, whatever

9:55they may be, may pose a serious threat to our military or civilian aircraft, and that must be understood. Now, my career and training as a longtime and career educator and teacher and researcher tell me that we should never rule anything out. We know that our space, of course, is vast and undiscovered. I also want to note that Mr. Sean Kirkpatre, director of the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, the component of the DoD office that investigates UAP data, has testified before the Senate this year, that his unit has found no evidence of extra activity. NASA has also stated they don't have evidence of extraterrestrial life either, and we've heard this of course from some of our government agencies. And we should remind viewers and witnesses, which I think is really important, that we also cannot share

10:40classified information in public settings. But questions of course remain that people want to see data and information for themselves. The enormous interest in the hearing today underscores the importance of a fair and open look at the evidence from witnesses who can share their unique perspectives. Now I know I certainly have a lot of questions and I know that all the members of our committee do as well. We should come to this hearing with an open mind and we should not let our existing ideas restrict us on either side. I hear over and over from many agencies the stigma around reporting and investigating UAPs prevents us from getting real answers. We know that whistleblowers have reported harassment, intimidation or stigma as well and this is not acceptable. If people can't report incidents which would have national security or safety implications, then

11:26that also has serious consequences for us. As ranking member of this subcommittee, I know it's my I know my job would be completely impossible if whistleblowers or others feel intimidated to come before this committee. We can't be afraid of asking questions and we can't be afraid of the truth. I'm proud to say this that this hearing builds upon bipartisan work by members of the House and Senate dating many years back which has sought to increase awareness within the Department of Defense and more and to mandate more of Congress of UAPs. We know the Senate is taking up an amendment to their defense authorization bill which will create a commission with broad declassification authority and we can all should all agree that that is an important step. Members of both parties and senior officials in multiple administrations have taken an interest in this issue and we're proud to carry and build that confidence in the

12:10American people. This hearing will also not be the end of this discussion but a new chapter and start to years and years of work that many folks both in both in the public and within government have been working on. We should encourage more reporting not less on UAPs. The more they we understand the safer we will be. We will hear testimony from witnesses today with a long record of service to the American people and with subject matter expertise. Our witnesses have a unique opportunity to share the perspective, insights, um, and their experiences with the American people. And I encourage all of my colleagues to engage with these difficult questions with an open mind and to follow the facts on behalf of our country. I also just want to say more broadly that we should look at this hearing with and believe that everything is on the table

12:55as it relates to UAPs. I think we an open mind is absolutely the best. I want to yield the the two and a half minutes of the remainder of my time to the representative from Florida, Representative Moscow for an opening statement. He also has been um very much engaged in this issue and I want to thank him uh for his leadership. Congressman U. Thank you, Ranking Member Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank uh Tim Burchett and Anapalina Luna for their leadership in pushing uh this hearing forward. I want to thank uh obviously committee staff and their staff working on this on a bipartisan basis uh because many Americans are deeply interested uh in this issue and it it shouldn't take the potential of non-human origin to bring us together. Uh additionally, I want to thank the witnesses for for coming forward to share your perspectives, your thoughts,

13:40your and the sightings of UAPs. Unlike other hearings many times in Congress, you're not here to help a political party, but you're here to share information with the American people. And it's not something that is just going on in this administration. It's something that's uh spanned many administrations. For decades, many Americans have been fascinated by objects mysterious and unexplained. And it's long past time that they got some answers. The American public has a right to learn about technologies of unknown origins, non-human intelligence, and unexplainable phenomena. Those are not the words of a UFO Twitter account. Though that is a direct quote from majority leader Chuck Schumer that the American public has a right to learn about technologies of unknown origins,

14:26non-human intelligence, and unexplainable phenomena. In an interview with Fox News, recent former director of national intelligence John Radcliffe confirmed the US government is aware a lot more sightings of UAPs and that they have not made that information public. I quote, "There are a lot more sightings that have not been made public," Radcliffe said to Fox News. "For me, this hearing is about transparency. We unfortunately live in a time in which many people distrust government and our institutions. An overclassification of information away from the American public or even Congress contributes to today's politics. The American people have regular questions. What are UAPs? How come the media doesn't report more on them? Are they foreign adversaries? Are they US technology? Are they

15:12something else? They ask themselves, "How come when a Russian jet shoots flares at one of our drones, we have perfect pictures and videos to show the American people and the world? But when it comes to UAPs, nothing. Of course, we must always protect our national security to maintain our superiority, like when stealth helicopters were only rumored to exist, but were used in the Osama bin Laden raid in 2011. But we can't allow that to be used as a shield to keep the American people completely in the dark from basic truths. The American people deserve to hear more about special access programs. Congress has a right to know if there's any unsanctioned weapons development.

15:57Satellite imagery that has not been provided to Congress. Congress created the all domain resolution office in the NDAA of 2022. In its initial analysis, there are 171 uncharacterized UAP reports, and this is the words from the report, that appear to have demonstrated unusual flight characteristics or performance capabilities. I believe more information is known about the 171 instances. It's time for Congress to reinsert ourselves. I call on our military leaders and intelligence officials to release more information to the American people about UAPs. And to our military leaders, if there's nothing to conceal, let Congress go to write Patterson Air Force Base, the Dougway

16:43Proving Ground, or even Groom Lake in Nevada. We should have disclosure today. We should have disclosure tomorrow. The time has come. Thank you, Ranking Member. Thank you, Mr. Moscow. And I would yield back now to our chairman. Thank you. Right now, I'd like to introduce our witnesses. Our first witness is Lieutenant Ryan Graves. He's the executive director of Americans for Safe Aerospace. Lieutenant Graves is also a former US Navy F-18 pilot with his own UA UAP experience. The next witness, David Grush, is a former senior intelligence officer with the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency and was a senior technical adviser for UAP issues. And final finally, retired Navy commander D commander David Fraver,

17:29squadron leader who worked as a naval aviator for 18 years. Mr. Fraver has his own UAP experience known as the Tik Tok event. I look forward to hearing from all three of you today. Um, pursuant to committee rule 9G, the witnesses will please stand and raise their right hands. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God. Let the record show that all the witnesses answered in the affirmative. You may be seated. We appreciate you all being here today and look forward to your testimony. I'll remind the witnesses that we have read your written statements and they will appear in full in the hearing record. Please try to limit your oral statements to five

18:15minutes. As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it's on and the members can hear you. When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After four minutes, it'll turn yellow and the red light when that comes on uh tells you your five minutes have expired. I'll now recognize Mr. Graves for five minutes for your opening statement. Thank you, Chairman Gothman, Ranking Member Garcia, distinguished members of the House Oversight Subcommittee on National Security, Representatives Burchett and Luna. My name is Ryan Fobs Graves and I'm a former F-18 pilot with a decade of service in the US Navy, including two deployments in Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Inherent Resolve. I have experienced advanced UAP firsthand, and I'm here to voice the concerns of more than 30 commercial air

19:01crew and military veterans who have confided their similar encounters with me. Today, I would like to highlight three critical issues that demand our action. As we convene here, UAP are in our airspace, but they are grossly under reportported. These sightings are not rare or isolated. They are routine. Military air crew and commercial pilots, trained observers whose lives depend on accurate identification, are frequently witnessing these phenomenon. The stigma attached to UAP is real and powerful and challenges national security. It silences commercial pilots who fear professional repercussions, discourages witnesses, and is only compounded by recent government claims questioning the credibility of eyewitness testimony. Parts of our government are aware of more about UAP than they let on, but excessive classification practices keep

19:47crucial information hidden. Since 2021, all UAP videos are classified as secret or above. This level of secrecy not only impedes our understanding but fuels speculation and mistrust. In 2014, I was an F-18 Fox pilot in the Navy Fighter Attack Squadron 11, the Red Rippers, and I was stationed at NAS Oceanana in Virginia Beach. After upgrades were made to our jet's radar systems, we began detecting unknown objects operating in our airspace. At first, we assumed they were radar errors, but soon we began to correlate the radar tracks with multiple onboard sensors, including infrared systems, eventually through visual ID. During a training mission in warning area Whiskey 72, 10 miles off the coast of Virginia Beach, two F-18 Super

20:32Hornets were split by a UAP. The object, described as a dark gray or black cube inside of a clear sphere, came within 50 ft of the lead aircraft and was estimated to be 5 to 15 ft in diameter. The mission commander terminated the flight immediately and returned base. Our squadron submitted a safety report, but there was no official acknowledgement of the incident and no further mechanism to report the sightings. Soon these encounters became so frequent that air crew would discuss the risk of UAP as part of their regular pre-flight briefs. Recognizing the need for action and answers, I founded Americans for Safe Aerospace. The organization has since become a haven for UAP witnesses who were previously unspoken due to the absence of a safe intake process. More than 30 witnesses have come forward and

21:17almost 5,000 Americans have joined us in the fight for transparency at safe aerospace.org. The majority of witnesses are commercial pilots at majority major airlines. Often they are veterans with decades of flying experience. Pilots are reporting UAP at altitudes that appear above them at 40,000 ft, potentially in low Earth orbit or in the gray zone below the Karman line, making inexplainable maneuvers like right-hand turns and retrograde orbits or J hooks. Sometimes these reports are reoccurring with numerous recent sightings north of Hawaii and in the North Atlantic. Other veterans are also coming forward to us regarding UAP encounters in our airspace and oceans. The most compelling involve observations of UAP by multiple witnesses and sensor systems. I believe these accounts are only scratching the

22:03surface and more will share their experiences once it is safe to do so. In closing, I recognize the skepticism surrounding this topic. If everyone could see the sensor and video data I've witnessed, our national conversation would change. I urge us to put aside stigma and address the security and safety issue this topic represents. If UAP are foreign drones, it is an urgent national security problem. if it is something else is an issue for science. In either case, unidentified objects are concerned for flight safety. The American people deserve to know what is happening in our skies. It is long overdue. Thank you, Mr. Rush. Mr. Chairman, ranking members and congressmen, uh, thank you. I'm happy to

22:49be here. This is an important issue, and I'm grateful for your time. My name is David Charles Grush. I was an intelligence officer for 14 years in the both in the US Air Force uh both active duty, Air National Guard and Reserve at the rank of major and most recently from 2021 to 2025 or excuse me 2023 uh at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency NGA uh at the GS-15 civilian level which is the military equivalent of a fullird colonel. I was my agency's co-lead in unidentified anomalous phenomena and transmedium object analysis as well as reporting to the UAP task force UAPF uh and eventually once it was established uh the all domain anomaly resolution

23:34office arrow. I became a whistleblower through a PPD19 urgent concern filing in uh May 2022 uh with the intelligence community inspector general. Uh following concerning reports from multiple esteemed and credentialed current and former military and intelligence community individuals that the US government is operating with secrecy above congressional oversight uh with regards to UAPs. My testimony is based on information I've been given by individuals with a longstanding track record of legitimacy and service to this country. Many of whom also have shared compelling evidence in the form of photography, official documentation, and classified

24:21oral testimony to myself and many my various colleagues. I have taken every step I can to collaborate this evidence over a period of four years while I was with the UAP task force and do my due diligence on the individual sharing it. Uh this is because of these steps I believe strongly uh in the importance of bringing this information before you. I am driven by a commitment of both uh to truth and transparency rooted in our inherent duty to uphold the United States Constitution and protect the American people. I'm asking Congress to hold our government to this standard and thoroughly investigate these claims. But as I stand here under oath now, I am speaking to the facts as I've been told

25:06them in the US Air Force in my National Reconnaissance Office NRO reserveist capacity. I was a member of the UAP task force from 2019 to 2021. I served at the NRO operations center on the director's briefing staff which included the coordination of the presidential daily brief and supporting variety of contingency operations which I was the reserve intelligence division chief uh backup. In 2019, the UAP task force director asked me to identify all special access programs and controlled access programs also known as SAPS and CAPS. uh we needed to satisfy our congressionallymandated mission and we were direct report at the time to the

25:51depths deaf at the time. Due to my extensive executive level intelligence support duties, I was cleared to literally all uh relevant compartments and in a position of extreme trust both in my military and civilian capacities. Uh I was informed in the course of my official duties of a multi-deade uh UAP crash retrieval and reverse engineering program. Uh to which I was denied access to those additional readons when I uh requested it. I made the decision based on the data I collected to report this information to my superior superiors and multiple inspectors general and in effect becoming a whistleblower. As you know, I have suffered retaliation for my

26:37decision. Uh, but I am hopeful that my actions will ultimately lead uh to a positive outcome of uh increased transparency. Uh, thank you and I'm happy to answer your questions. Thank you, uh, Commander Favor. Fraver. Uh, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Congressman, Congresswoman. Um, I want to first thank you for the invitation to speak to the committee on the UAP topic. that has been in the news for the past six years and seems to be continuing to gain momentum. As you know, my name is David Fraver. I'm a retired commander in the United States Navy. In 2004, I was a commanding officer of Strike Fighter Squadron 41, the world famous Black Aces. We are attached to carrier wing 11 stationed on board the USS Nimmits and had begun a two-month workup cycle off the coast of California.

27:23On this day, we were scheduled for a 2v2 air-to-air training with the USS Princeton as our control. When we launched off new, my wingman was joining up. We were told that the training was going to be suspended and we were doing were going to proceed with real world tasking. As we proceeded to the west, the air controller was counting down the range to an object that we were going to and we were unaware of what we were going to see when we arrived. [gasps] There uh the controller had told us that these objects uh had been observed for over two weeks coming down from over 80,000 ft rapidly descending to 20,000 ft hanging out for hours and then going straight back up. For those who don't realize, above 80,000 feet is space. We arrived at the location at approximately 20,000 feet in a controller called Merge Plot, which means that our radar blip was now in the

28:08same resolution cell as the contact. As we looked around, we noticed that we saw some white water off our right side. It's important to note that the weather on this day was as close to perfect as you could ask for off the coast of San Diego. Clear skies, light winds, calm seas, no white caps from waves. So, the white water stood out in a large blue ocean. All four of us, because we were in F-18F, so we had pilots and Wizo in the back seat, looked down a small saw white tic-tac object with a longitudinal axis pointing north south and moving very abruptly over the water like a ping-pong ball. There were no rotors, no rotor wash, or any sign of visible control surfaces like wings. As we started clockwise towards the object, my wizo and I decided to go down and take a closer look with the other aircraft staying in high cover to observe both us and the tic tac. We proceeded around the circle about 90

28:54degrees from the start of our descent and the object object suddenly shifted its longitudinal axis, aligned it with my aircraft and began to climb. We continued down another 270 degrees nose low where the tic tac or we consume 270 degrees to where and we went nose low to where the tic tac would have been. Our altitude at this point was about 15,000 ft and the tic tac was about 12,000. As we pulled nose onto the object within about a half mile of it, it rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared. Our wingmen, roughly 8,000 feet above us, lost contact also. We immediately turned back to see where the white water was at. And it was gone also. So, as we started to turn back towards the east, the controller came up and said, "Sir, you're not going to believe this, but that thing is at your cap point, roughly 60 miles away in less than a minute. You can calculate the

29:40speed." We returned to Nimttz. We were taking off our gear. We were talking to one of my crews that was getting ready to launch. mentioned it to them and they went out and luckily got the video that you see that 90 second video. What you don't see is the radar tape that was never released and we don't know where it's at of the active jamming that the object put on an APG73 radar. And I can get into modes later if you're interested. What is shocking to us is that the incident was never investigated. None of my crew were ever questioned. Tapes were never taken. And after a couple days, it turned into a great story with friends. It wasn't until 2009 till Jay Stratton had contacted me to investigate. Unbeknownst to all, he was part of the ATIP program in the Pentagon led by Lu Alzando. Uh there was an unofficial official report that came out that's now on the internet. Years later, I was contacted

30:22by the other pilot, Alex Dietrich, and asked if I'd been contacted, and I said no, but I'm willing to talk. I was contacted by Mr. Alzando, and uh we talked for a short period of time, and he said we'd be uh in contact. A few weeks after that, I was made aware that Lou had left the Pentagon in protest and joined forces with Tom Dong, Chris Melon, Steve Justice, and others to form two stars academy, an organization that pressed the issue with leading industry experts and US government officials. They worked with Leslie Keane, who is present today, Rob Blumenthal, and Helen Cooper to publish the articles in the New York Times 2017 uh New York Times. And it removed the stigma on the topic of UFOs, which is why we're here today. Those articles open the door for the government and public that cannot be closed. It has led to an interest from our elected officials who are not focused on little green men but figuring

31:07out where these craft are, where they from, the technology they possess, how do they operate. It also led to the whistleblower protection act in the NDAA. There are multiple witnesses coming forward to say uh that have firsthand knowledge and and Mr. Gush just covered that. What concerns me is that there's no oversight from our elected officials on anything associated with our government processing or working on craft. Uh believe not from this world. This issue is not a full public disclosure that could undermine national security, but it is about ensuring that our system of checks and balances works across all work done in the government using taxpayer funds. Relative to government programs, even unacknowledge wave programs have some level of oversight by the appropriate committee members in the House and Senate. And this work that is said to be occurring from whistleblower testimonies should not be exempt. In closing, I

31:50would like to say that the tic-tac object we engaged in 2004 was far superior to anything that we had on time, have today, or looking to develop in the next 10 years. If we in fact have programs that possess this technology, it needs to have oversight from those people that the citizens of this great country elected in office to represent what is best for the United States and best for the citizens. I thank you for your time. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I know it's very difficult for all of you all you've done in the past to try to illuminate this issue. Call on myself first for some questions. I'm going to start with Mr. Graves. Um, are your pilots are pilots that you interact with as part of your organization? Do you feel adequately trained and briefed on how to handle encounters with UAPs? No. Right now, uh, military witnesses to

32:35UAP have limited options for reporting UAP. Uh, but more more concerning is that commercial uh, aviation sector has not adapted to the lessons that the military has implemented. Um the military and department of defense has stated that UAP represent a critical aviation safety risk. Uh we have not seen that that same um that same language being used in the commercial markets. They are not acknowledging this risk. Okay. What steps do you think have to be taken to improve a pilot's UAP reporting be it military or commercial? Right now we need a system where pilots can report without fear of losing their jobs. uh there is a fear that the stigma associated with this topic is going to lead to professional repercussions either through management or perhaps through their yearly physical check. So

33:21having a secure system reducing the stigma uh and making this available this information available through the public is going to reduce uh the concerns that air crew have. Could you just give me a little idea that the degree to which reports in the past are are not made public right now? [snorts] Well, I don't think there has been a proper reporting system to gather those reports and thus not report them. Uh, so to answer your question, I think there is a der of data due to the fact that the reporting has been limited up to this time. Could you tell me why you believe it's kind of to play the devil's advocate, a reason why some of this stuff should not be available to the public? There's certainly some national security concerns when we use our advanced sensors and our tactical jets to be able to identify these these objects. However, there's no reason that the objects themselves would be classified.

34:07Uh I would be curious to see how the security classification guideline actually spells out the different uh nuances of how this topic is classified from the from the perspective of UAP, not national security. I'll give you a followup on that. Assuming that there are reasons why not all this should be made public, this has been around for a long period of time. Um, can you think of can any of the three of you think of any reason why anything related to UAPs say 15 years and back should not be immediately made public? I think one of it is uh acknowledging um a vulnerability both from a collection and I'll just say a you know countermeasure perspective. So it's not we haven't cracked for many years. Yeah.

34:53even say 20 years back, is there any reason why when you go back that far things shouldn't be made public? Unless it shows a specific national security vulnerability as it relates uh to a weakness in particular defense system. Okay. Mr. Fraver, the Tik Tok incident that you that with that you were engaged occurred in 2004. What kind of reporting took place after that incident? None. We had a standard debrief where the backseaters went down to our carrier intel center and briefed what had happened and that was it. No one else talked to us and I was in the top 20 in the battle group. No one came. The captain was aware, admiral was aware. Nothing was done. Your commanding officers provide any sort of justification? No, because I was the commanding officer of the squadron. So,

35:39no. Was this incident the only UAP event that you encountered while you were a pilot? Yes, it was. Okay. Um, this is for any one of you. Based on based off of each of your experiences and observations, do you believe UAPs pose a potential threat to our national security? I'll do it. Yes. And here's why. The the technology that we faced was far superior than anything that we had. And you could put that anywhere. If you if you had one, you captured one, you reverse engineered it, you got it to work, you're talking something that can go into space, go someplace, drop down in a matter of seconds, do whatever it wants, and leave. And there's nothing we can do

36:24about it. Nothing. Okay. Either the other you two. Well, I would also like to add from commercial aviation and military aviation perspective, we deal with uncertainty in our operating space as a matter of of our protect professional actions. identifying friend from foe is is very important to us. Uh and so when we have unidentified targets and we continue to ignore those due to a stigma or a fear of what it could be, that's an opening that our adversaries can take advantage of. What what what uh steps should be taken to better understand and respond to UAP encounters in the interest of national security. There needs to be a location where this information is centralized for processing. And there needs to be a two-way communication loop so the operators on the front end have a feedback and can can get best practices on how to process information, what to

התמלול קוצר כאן. אפשר להמשיך לצפות מהרגע הזה בנגן.